Pop powerhouse Dua Lipa joins Zane Lowe on Apple Music 1 to talk about her newest era and body of work, Radical Optimism. Dua explains to Zane that, "Finally, I'm at a place in my career where I feel really confident. It took me so long to get to this place. We're doing the tell-all. This is my first time talking about anything, album title, the record, the songs individually.” She goes on to say, "By writing these songs, it's a form of therapy for me. It's just such a vulnerable thing to do, to write your thoughts down into melody, and then have it be consumed by other people."
Dua also reveals that she knew the album title from the very beginning, “I knew the title for 'Radical Optimism'. It was a term that my friend told me, I was doing an interview with him, and he was like, "You know what the world needs? Is radical optimism." And I lived with that thought for so long, and it just became more and more prevalent as time went on.”
Zane notes that, "Dua has pushed through enormous amounts of criticism and self-doubt where the story can be told,” he also points out that, Radical Optimism feels like a relative to Future Nostalgia.
Dua Lipa explains 'Radical Optimism'…
Radical Optimism, and the way that I see it, is this idea of rolling with the punches of not letting anything get you down for too long, of always seeing the positive side of things, of being able to grow and move forward and change your perspective regardless of what's happening in your life, whether it's heartbreak, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a relationship, whether it's just growing and seeing things differently. I think it's a big part of maturing and growing up.
Dua Lipa on writing songs as therapy and what ‘perspective’ means to her…
…You write them [songs] as a form of therapy, whatever it is in the moment. But I felt like, definitely, I’ve changed so much from who I was in my first album to who I am now, emotionally. And I've grown and I've matured. And I think you just find the sense of happiness and optimism and this kind of carefree energy of what's meant for me is for me. And I think perspective is something that I guess just keeps coming back.
[Perspective means to me…] Emotional maturity in a way. I think my job has given me the opportunity in so many amazing ways to, I guess, grow up before my time, feel things completely differently, experience the world in a different way. And so I feel like emotional maturity has also come from the situations that I've been thrown in. So in that sense, perspective is gifted to you because you see things from so many different people's points of view. And I think for me, writing songs for a living, I think about emotions and feelings and thoughts. So much of how does this make me feel? How will this make someone else feel when they hear it? What is the energy and the emotion and the thing that I'm trying to convey at this point in my life? And I think by writing these songs, it's a form of therapy for me. And I get emotional maturity and perspective from all those things that allow me to grow and move on, which I'm so grateful for. It's just such a vulnerable thing to do is write your thoughts down into melody, and then have it be consumed by other people.
Dua Lipa on fame and what things she should keep for herself versus share…
...I never thought of the idea of being famous. So it is interesting. As I'm growing in the industry and seeing the different sides of it's like, "Okay, what things do I keep for myself? What things do I put out?” It's a writer's dilemma. In some ways, I had no inhibitions. I was jumping in and experimenting and trying something new. In some ways, I was really scared to ... Or it just took me a while to find my voice, to write things that they were personal to me, but always in code, never fully wanting to put myself out there just because I felt like I needed to keep something for myself. And with this album, I feel like I've managed to put so much more honesty out there, and be really open in a way that I don't think I've ever had the chance to. I also feel like when I was writing Future Nostalgia, whatever I wrote that day in the studio, that was it. That was like the end of the song. Maybe a couple lyric tweaks here and there, but that was the demo that I would then go and record and finish.
Whereas with Radical Optimism, every single song that's on the album, I've gone back in and I've rewritten it and changed it, and my perspective has changed and my story has changed. And the way that I saw different scenarios or different things that happened in my life shifted. And it was a beautiful experience to not be afraid to be like, "Actually, you know what? I am willing to put this out there." There's this one song, which is the last song in the album called "Happy for You." And I love that song because, to me, it's about seeing someone who you were with move on, and be really happy for them. And I probably wouldn't have been able to write that song on my first or second record because I don't feel like I probably would've grown as a person or as an artist to be able to see someone that you loved move on. Or I would've found it difficult.
Dua Lipa on relationships…
In terms of relationships, I needed to get to this place in order to find what I really needed. You have to be in the act of forgiveness and growing and learning, and being okay with the past in order to move on with what's to come next. So it's, for me, "Happy for You" is a beautiful, happy song, because it's so reflective of my journey.
I think with every relationship, with every experience you learn about yourself, you learn about things that are hurtful to you, what you expect, what you should be ready to give as well. I think, again, it goes back to that exchange of vulnerability. I think I've had relationships which have been really hurtful, especially earlier on, where I feel like I've been made to feel like not good enough or have made me lose my confidence. And I've had to find that again. And you learn about your own non-negotiables. I think that's an important thing. It's of course the right person, but it's really about the right relationship. And you find that in friendships and in love relationships as well, of your non-negotiables. What are you willing to give up? Someone's like, "Oh." Maybe you have an ick or something, or you see that someone is disloyal. I'm like, "That's a non-negotiable." I want someone who's loyal and open and honest, and that's what I'm willing to be as well in return. You figure out what those things are for you.
Dua Lipa on manifestation and knowing she would eventually work with Tame Impala’s Kevin Parker…
Dua Lipa: I believe in manifestation big time. And also when I'm in the studio writing, I think about these songs being sung over a long period of time. I think about people singing them. I think of it like a mantra, and I'm like, if I'm going to say this over and over again, it better be something good, better be some good feeling. I want to bring something positive and optimistic.
There's a lot of things that sometimes I say stuff and I go, "Okay, you fucking be careful because that could happen." But when I was writing my first album, and I know this is going to sound mad, but—When I was writing my first album, I was having thoughts about my third album, jumping, one, but I thought that by the third album, I would maybe be deserving of one working with Tame Impala. And that was written down. I had that in my notes of like, "That'd be cool." And I remember talking to my A&R and my close friend Joe Kentish, and I was like, "Yeah, but ..." I was like, "Great, great first album. Third album, maybe I could work with Kevin Parker.” It's like Currents was the record that completely shook me. And at that point it was delusion.
Zane Lowe: And here now happened.
Dua Lipa: Exactly. So you never know. So that was something that I'd written down for album three. And another thing that I'd written down for album three was headlining Glastonbury.
Dua Lipa on dealing with hate…
Well, it's interesting. I think everything comes in stages and waves. There can be a moment where people really love you and you feel so supported and you're like, oh, this is great. Especially in the beginning. I was doing interviews and people were like, "How do you deal with hate?" And I'm like, "I don't get any hate. It's great." And then that changed really quickly. And I remember even when it was Grammys' best new artist nomination and I'd won it and there was people online being like, she's not deserving of it. She's got no stage presence. She can't do this. She's not well- equipped to, she's not even—She won't be here next year. There was a lot of that. That fueled me in a way. I try and not use criticism as this revenge— So I think whenever I see or feel or read anything that goes against what I know is coming or what I've been doing or how hard I've been working or whatever it is, I just kind of take a step back and I just go, okay, all of this is background noise and I should just stick on my path. Because every time someone has doubted me, I've proved them wrong. And for me, I'm like, this is fueling me. This is pushing me to be better, to work hard. And I get a real kick out of proving people wrong.
Dua Lipa on headlining Glastonbury…
I feel like I'm going to get teary talking about it. Glastonbury is just the festival, that one, I've loved going just as a fan. And to go up on that stage and perform ... I remember moments before I went on stage, I looked out into the crowd. I performed Glastonbury twice, and I looked out in the crowd the first time I performed. I had a 12:15 or something slot on a Saturday. Terrible slot because people are partying all night on Friday. And I'm like, "I don't know if anyone's going to show up." And I remember the first time looking out, and there were some people, but it was raining. And I was like, "Okay, it doesn't matter. I'm just going to go out there." By the time I'd gotten out on stage and the whole place was full, people were outside in their raincoats, oozing out the tent. And I was like, "Oh, this is special. There's something happening and people care." And then the second time I played was when my first album came out and the same thing happened. I put my head out just to see how many people were there, and it was just as I was about to go on and there really wasn't anyone. And I was like, "Oh, fuck. No one's going to come see her." But again, I just went, "Do you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm going to get out and I'm just going to perform and I'm going to have fun." And again, by the time that I went out, the whole thing was full and I—jumped out and I had the best time. But I felt that by album three, I'd be deserving of maybe headlining or something.
It's the first time I've said it out loud. But this is the first time I've said a lot of things out loud. This is the first time in this room I haven't yet even announced my album title. And so I'm like, "I'm talking to you about it." It's all very surreal. Yeah, it's just like—it's my biggest dream. It's headlining Glastonbury. When I'm in the studio and I'm writing, the first thought that comes into my mind is, "What is this going to sound like at Glastonbury?” For me, it's the most beautiful experience that I've ever had. But seeing other people, the connection, the community, the love, the feeling that everyone shares where they just come together to have a good time, there's such a sense of freedom there.
I’ve known [I was headlining] for a little while... I got an email at the end of my Future Nostalgia tour. It's been the biggest secret. Biggest secret ever, but it's working on radical optimism. It's been that thing of like ... And actually I didn't even tell the band until we were coming towards the end of the writing and I was just like, "I'm going to perform quite a few of these songs on the record at Glastonbury and I'm going to be headlining." And I think everyone was just like ... I think they felt the energy. That fueled me in a different way to make this album. Thinking about what it's going to look like on stage. Yeah. Every time I think about performing these songs, it's like a rush of electricity going through my body.
Dua Lipa on artist ownership…
Zane Lowe: I think about what an interesting life you've built for yourself outside of just music and the way that you appreciate the idea of self-ownership and are unafraid to take responsibility for decisions across multiple verticals in life. Your newsletter, your podcast. Getting back the ownership of your music, I got to talk about that because I'm really obsessed with artist ownership. I've experimented in other areas where I've co-owned things or tried to. And it never felt really great to me. It's not easy getting control over your catalogue like that and over your songs like that. Can you tell us a little bit about how you did that and what it's meant to you, to know that those songs now are under your stewardship?
Dua Lipa: In some ways, I started in this industry fairly young. I was learning the ropes as I was going into it. I knew what I wanted out of my job, A lot of it revolved around performing. Like I said, that was just my idea of my career. And along the way, you understand that the music industry is also a business and how just growing in it, understanding it differently, reading the small print, as an artist, you just want to stay in the creative lane. You want to just be like, "I just want to make my music. That's all I care about.” "I don't want to think about the business side of it." But it is at the end of the day, and I had to start paying attention to that. I think again, another part of growing up is just relying on yourself more wholeheartedly and being like, "I want to be in control of my career. I want to know everything that's happening." It was just important for me to have everything under one bracket. I want to be my own business. I want to own all my music. I want to have my own production company that will do things under this thing that I've called Radical22, which is a management company, which I do with my dad. Which is great because we have such an open dialogue. I think that also goes back to the early trust that I've had with my parents, and I've never felt more in control of my career.
But it's just like that. It's this constant open dialogue, which is incredible, and it was really what I needed in order to do the things that I love. And so acquiring my publishing was a big step and something that I've been wanting for a long time. And also, I just wanted to be separated from another entity. I wanted to be everything under one roof. I wanted to be the decision-maker on what happens with them and where they find a home and what happens next. I think all those things are important, but I think I want to be the decision-maker.
Dua Lipa on when she realised she wanted to build her own business foundation for herself...
It's funny. Everything trickles back from when I was younger. Now talking about Service95, when I was 15 and I just moved back to London from Kosovo, I started this blog and it was called Do A Daily. And I would just ... Like random ramblings and it would be recommendations or how I made this movie, or what I was wearing or the music I was listening to or whatever. It was fun. It was purely for fun. It was another way of me expressing myself. It was something that I loved and I think it just kind of came back to that music is my life. It's what I do. It's the way that I have this creative outlet in a big way, but it's not the only thing that defines me and it's not everything that I am. And so yeah, Service95 was another way of me being able to put in all my other interests and being able to commission different stories. One thing that I've been lucky with is the curiosity gene. I've always wanted to learn new things. I always want to dive in and find out about a book or find out about what's happening in different parts of the world. And I think that interest and that curiosity has made me want to do it on a bigger scale.
Dua Lipa on her podcast, 'Dua Lipa: At Your Service'…
Dua Lipa: It's been eye-opening. For me, also, what I realized is when I do long-form interviews, I can really dive in deeper and I really enjoy that. And that's something that I enjoy with the podcast. I feel like I have more time to express myself, more time, sometimes my thoughts take on their own little life and as I'm speaking them, then I'm like, oh, it all makes sense. That's what I mean. It's having that space and I feel like you provide a beautiful space and I feel like I can really talk about my experiences freely, and I think that's the key. It's much easier than when everything's bite-sized or you have these five-minute interviews and you can never really quite get to the nitty-gritty kind of thing. It's quick. It's like bite-sized, so that kind of changes the feeling, but these are the things that I live for, these deep conversations I love. I love that. Yeah, I will, man [keep going with it]. So much research goes into it. So much time goes into it. So it's a lot of, I listened to all their other podcasts and watch the documentaries and read the book and all before I have to interview them.
Zane Lowe: Who surprised you? Who was the one in conversation that went there to places that you really felt you weren't expecting and you emerged from it feeling different than when you started?
Dua Lipa: I've had so many conversations that I feel like I've been spoiled by surprise. I think I leave a lot of them quite moved. But speaking to Bryan Stevenson, the civil rights lawyer who helps get people off death row, that was an unbelievably moving conversation. I think one where I've left feeling so grateful, one for him, but also seeing the kind of people we have in the world that are so selfless, so giving, so dedicated to other people. I found him just incredibly moving, I think overall. But even speaking to someone like Monica Lewinsky and seeing all the work that she had to do after being what? Patient zero of the internet, the first person to get dragged online and the effect that had and how she's now changed it into trying to help other people after what she experienced.
